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[Music]

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What does it mean to be called crazy in a crazy world?

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Listen to Madness Radio, voices and visions from outside mental health.

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[Music]

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Welcome to Madness Radio. This is your host Will Hall.

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Today I'm joined with my co-host, Jacks McNamara.

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Great to see you, Jacks.

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Glad to be here again. It's been a while.

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Yeah, it was wonderful seeing you recently at the Pittsburgh ISPS conference.

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It was a bit of a reunion.

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We have a reunion today because I'm very excited about our guest, Katie Simon,

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who is a longtime friend, ally, comrade, organizer with the Freedom Center.

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Many, many years involved in the Mad Movement and now is focusing on

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harm reduction and sex workers rights. Do you want to introduce Katie for us, Jacks?

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Yeah, I'd be happy to. So Katie Simon is spent more than 20 years in the low income rights,

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psychiatric survivors rights, sex workers rights, and drug users' union movements.

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She's a leadership team member of and a sex worker liaison for National Survivors Union,

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the United States National Drug Users Union, and executive staff and two of its affiliate groups

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across the country. Katie is one of the main organizers with the Freedom Center and Western

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Massachusetts and the Insta Creator of Poverty is not a crime. Welcome, Katie.

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So glad to be here.

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Yeah, welcome, Katie. It's great to see you again.

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And just we were thinking about we're probably going to title the show Sex and Drug.

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So here we are.

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You do have that childless impulse to reduce it down to that, for sure.

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Let's get started. I mean, how should we dive right into what's a better way to frame?

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Sex and Drug is fine. It kind of reminds me of an old school harm reduction T-shirt,

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like a shoot safe and screw safe, something like that, something catchier than what I just produced

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it for my garbled memory. But yeah, sure, go ahead.

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How did you get involved with this work? Like what is your personal kind of connection to it all?

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Basically, I was a baby junkie hooker of 21 in the Western Massachusetts area.

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I had grown up like in kind of like a mixed class background. I was a first generation Russian

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Jewish immigrant. I was born en route from the Soviet Union to the United States in Italy

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when my parents were immigrating. And I kind of dropped out of college and became

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a black sheep of my Russian Jewish intelligence.

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Yeah, family and long story short, like many people I found sex work as an economic survival mechanism

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that worked for me at the time, like many, many marginalized people.

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I had also had been involuntarily, psychiatrically incarcerated as a teenager multiple times.

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So that was actually the first time that I experienced the bare naked reality of oppression, rather than

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you know, rather than oppression within like the soft velvet glove that most of us encounter

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in middle class environments, right? You know, it was in juvenile psychiatric words that I realized

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that people in power can do whatever they want to you. And that realization sort of radicalized me

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and took me to a lot of different movements. But you know, flashing forward to one, you know, when I was 21,

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when I was starting to use opioids, illicit opioids, and you know, working as a lower income

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escort in Western mass. So there were a lot of movements that interested me, but I actually first did

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start by, you know, looking into drug users union work at the time. There was the first iteration

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of the Springfield Drug Users Union. And I kind of walked into that meeting and I was, you know, a 20-year-old

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queer girl. And it was a meeting full of four-year-old cis men. And so I kind of just walked in and

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walked out because unfortunately at the time, even though harm reduction, true liberatory harm reduction

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had its roots in like a lot of black and brown leadership. You know, we don't often talk about it this way,

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but Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson were some of the first practitioners of harm reduction.

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They were using their sex work income to fund Starhouse, which was harm reduction housing

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for youth involved in street economies. So Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson are icons of the queer

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liberation movements. They were both said to have been involved in the Stonewall riots.

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So like, you know, even though harm reduction was a movement that, you know, was started in the 70s and 80s

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by many, many black and brown people doing underground work. At this point, it had very much centered

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on the white male cis straight guy who injected opioids as the default client and as the default

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organizer. And there was definitely this old boys network within harm reduction and drug users'

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union organizing. I was just curious if you could say what harm reduction is for people who aren't

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familiar with the term in the movement. So harm reduction is the philosophy that drug use is a

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complicated nuanced issue that we should meet people where they are at and reduce the harms of drug

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use and the drug war instead of working towards an abstinent and drug free world, which has never

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existed and will never be possible since, you know, human beings have been using psychoactive

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substances since all of recorded history. It is not minimizing the harms of drug use, but it is

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locating them within the social determinants of health and the structural factors that shape them

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and understanding that the drug war itself causes harms. And it is centering people with lived and

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living experience of drug use as prime decision makers about the services and the policies that affect

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them. It's a really important piece for people to understand because I mean, you were one of the

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people who helped deepen my understanding of the broader picture of the harm reduction movement

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and the idea of people who have the experience being leaders, people who are stigmatized, who are

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the topic is taboo, whose their voices aren't heard, which has a direct connection with the mad

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movement. It's the same ethos, it's the same issues because when we talk about harm reduction for

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mental health and I want to give a shout out to Bonfire Madigan Shive, who was also really important

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in my own understanding about this, that the fit is just so helpful because you can say there's

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you know, psychosis has been part of mania has been part of human experience and it's complex,

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it's nuance, taking substances to suppress, control, heal, deal with our states has also been part

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of human, so having an abstinence or a preaching or a judgment that says everyone should,

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you know, always take your meds or everyone should always not take your meds or everyone should never

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hear voices or everyone or voices are good for everyone, you should just embrace your voices,

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that actually those kinds of dogmas don't really work, that the key thing is meeting people where

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they're at and everybody making their own decisions and empowerment being the center of health and

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the thing that's important I think for people to to know about harm reduction as well is that

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harm reduction please correct me if I'm wrong and harm reduction does include abstinence as a choice

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if that's one of the things that you want to do. Absolutely yes, if many people say that abstinence

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is their harm reduction or they'll say I need to be abstinent from the drug that harmed me but I

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can use other drugs etc. it is about person centered care, it is about meeting people where they're at

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and having an individualized plan for people's lives instead of creating one size fits all models

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which as you so eloquently articulated it you know does not work for people and has never worked for

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people. Yeah so when we were doing the Freedom Center organizing you were a crucial link and connection

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with especially this group arise for social justice that you were very prominent organizer with

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because we just saw that there were maybe these silos or people weren't talking about multi-issues

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but for us as organizers poverty the war on drugs homelessness it all connected with mental health

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crisis and helping people get through whatever is that they're going through with psychiatric abuse

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and psychiatric oppression. Yeah absolutely rise for social justice was a foundational element in

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my development as an organizer when I walked out of that room of the Springfield drug users union

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what I walked into was the women in support of each other committee at arise for social justice

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and they were a multi-issue low-income rights organization as you said well that was started by

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Michael Ann B. U. C. Reston Peace she started this organization around a kitchen table with three

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other women on welfare and she was an incredible organizer she used to get arrested every year

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for protesting and you know throwing her you know tiny five-foot body against the cops saying that

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Springfield should be using its abandoned housing for homeless shelters rather than you know

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auctioning them off. Arise saw the connections between so many issues they were doing work on climate

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justice they were doing work on housing and then they started this woman in support of each other

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committee and one of the aims of that committee and this is how I began working in sex workers rights

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before I even joined the larger national movement was their goal was to de facto decriminalize

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prostitution in Springfield they wanted to stop prostitution arrests in the city and they also had

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goals around ending the drug war and fiscally sponsoring the Springfield drug users union was a part of

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that but yeah they were very ahead of their time and I started working with them in this campaign

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to try to de facto decriminalize prostitution in Springfield and also to stop the building

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of the of a new women's jail in chickpea it was remarkable because as you said well

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they were really open to getting input from other movements as well like we started top like at first

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they were really in favor of diversion um as a sort of you know if I may use the phrase harm reduction

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in this context is a sort of harm reduction measure towards you know reducing incarceration

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which is a parallel with mental health because you arrest someone and instead you put them into

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treatment which they learn from us that that's still forced treatment it's still oppression it's still

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it's just a it's just a medicalized oppression right exactly like and after listening to us they came

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to the you know the value as an organization that they were against forced treatment and that they

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understood the trauma and the way that you know medicalized coercive treatment is just you know an

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extension of carceral systems and works in complicity with them um so that was that was an amazing

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coalition and in fact there was freedom center representation on the board and it really was about

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like being able to connect like the experiences of people who were both you know who were sex workers

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who were using drugs who were experiencing distress that created conditions for them to be

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psychiatrically diagnosed etc etc etc and for all these people to have common cause and to understand

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these problems from a common lens and a lot of it which is how remarkable Michael Ann was as a person

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I mean she had her own psychiatric survivor story she had experienced forced treatment and she

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claimed it and brought it forward and used it as a bridge between these movements she was really

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she had an extraordinary impact on the freedom center and I think a lot of people she just passed away

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a few years ago so and let's not forget too that her eyes was so ahead of its time that they ran

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illegal uh syringe distribution from their office and got arrested for it um at the time

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Massachusetts was only allowing what they called the needle exchange because they didn't truly

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understand that you know the ultimate goal was syringe saturation in a community not quote

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unquote exchange and they still don't they were acting completely outside of any sort of legal

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permission from the state and they were doing it openly they were giving out clean syringes

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and harm reduction supplies they were groundbreakers in so many different ways how did you get involved

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with the freedom center throughout like my experience with psychiatric incarceration like I somehow

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I knew something was wrong you know I knew that I wasn't what they were telling me that I was

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I knew that human experience was more complex than that I had read books like Phyllis Chessler

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Women in Madness which was a feminist interpretation of how women are pathologized by psychiatry

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and I read some other texts like these but I I never encountered political organizing around

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you know psychiatric survivors rights at all so I was completely alone in this like I would read

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like feminist newspapers and you know there would be articles where there were ideas like therapy

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is about the idea that we can't fix the world so what can we do about changing you and that really

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resonated with me but again all of these ideas and all of these feelings they were useless when I

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was completely isolated in this ideology like I felt like every time I talked to somebody else

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from the left they were with me they were with me up until I started saying anything about psychiatric

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medication and my non adherence to it and so one day I walked into the freedom center I don't I don't

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remember how I found out about it I think there was like a booth at a local event do you want to tell

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us something about your experience as a psychiatric inmate and how that happened my experience is a

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psychiatric survivor started because of a lot of religious trauma that I was experiencing my mother

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when she came to the states she had this deep need to reconnect with her faith because you know even though

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Jewish religious practice was technically legal in the Soviet Union it was really frowned upon

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you would get kicked out of the party you wouldn't be considered for good positions etc so she had

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been completely secular in the Soviet Union so she became what's known as a balteshuvah

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attorney to the faith and she became very orthodox Jewish and she sent us to a modern orthodox Jewish

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day school so half the day we did English you know math whatever and then half the day we would do

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Talmud and Torah and Mishnah and intellectually it was a really exciting world for me I mean basically

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studying Talmud is kind of intellectually analogous to studying constitutional law so for like a

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nerdy nose picking 12 year old girl it was kind of parades ago in that sense you know and then these

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rabbis who some of them were even being forced to teach women for them to be like you know to give

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me like that special dollar to say you asked a really incisive Talmudic question I love that stuff

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but otherwise it was really difficult for me because like this was the orthodox Boston Jewish

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aristocracy they were incredibly rich they were incredibly enceler and I was Russian Jewish

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scholarship trash and I was like catching up on all these norms of this community that I had no idea

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about anything in it and it didn't help that I was also a feminist bisexual heretic you know I mean

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I got guidance from rabbis there like I couldn't even tell them like I'm bisexual like I had to say

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like I'm friends with a lot of LGBT people and like how do you reconcile that and I got told things

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by the rabbis like you know that gay sex must be wrong because people don't even do it face to face

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you know they're like animals which first of all shows a complete lack of sexual imagination a

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I was told this by a rabbi who was a virgin himself so you know who knows and then like also just

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the relentless misogyny I was chastened for hugging my brother in the hallway because there was a

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religious norm called Shomer Nagia meaning that you could not touch a member of the opposite sex

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the rabbi who chastened us in the hallway we were like I was like he's my brother and he's like it

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doesn't matter it's what it looks like you know we had to wear skirts below our knees we had to wear

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sleeves below our elbows and you were you were scolded by a teacher and you were yelled at if they

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thought you were quote distracting to boys so there was a lot of misplaced slut shaming there was just

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it was it was a horrific environment for someone like me and I got to this place where I became

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manic because I was staying up all night I was being sexually abused by an 18 year old guy when I was

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12 and I would stay up all night talking to him which is like another another product of these schools

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is like they didn't even think that that sort of thing could happen so they had all these middle

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schoolers you know with 18 and 19 year old men I was I was in the top five of my class you know I was

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getting straight A's you know in this 10 hour day curriculum and I was also like I was I was desperate

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for anything outside of this incredibly constraining culture so I was you know I was like contacting

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people you know artists and intellectual kids outside of this school system and hanging out with

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them so I basically never slept and so of course I became manic you know I don't blame my parents

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or the teachers at my school for this I don't think they knew any better but then I immediately

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you know was sent to juvenile word when I started expressing suicidal ideation and it happened

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several times where I experienced like even more homophobia like I was separated from all of the

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women there like and I was put into isolation because they found out that I was bisexual so you know

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they were like well you can't be with the boys and then you can't be with the girls either and you

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know like the usual like I don't think my experience was that different than most juvenile psychiatric

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experiences you know like there were the threats of like you know we're gonna shoot you up with

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Thorzyn in your ass if you misbehaved you know the stultification the zombification of being forced

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on to Ziprexa and then you know I witnessed a rape the first time that I was in one of these words

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and the response from the staff was not to comfort or support the 12 year old rape victim it was to

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call a meeting and tell us all to have better boundaries you know so so that we don't get pregnant

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and their fear seemed to be liability they like immediately took this girl to get a pregnancy test

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even though like that's ridiculous they couldn't have been able to tell that early and they didn't

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understand that if a 17 year old boy has like some 12 year old girl like hung up in a you know in

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in a corridor then you know that is a power imbalance and that's fucking that's rape you know

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so those were the kinds of things that I encountered there like I I saw I saw staffs actually

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abuse patients I was gonna say inmates I should have stayed with that language again that was when I

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first saw the nakedness of power laid bare and that experience stayed with me it made me understand

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the character of power so when I later experienced it as member as a member of other marginalized groups

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you know I knew what it was yeah thank you for sharing that I need some I need some of that story

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but not all that story Katie that's yeah that's really it's a lot yeah yeah and like the thing is that

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was a really typical juvenile ward experience in the 90s and I was I my parents had good health

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insurance I was not in bad I was not in quote-unquote bad places no it's still thing it still it still

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happens I've talked to people it's similar experiences rapes or or witnessing rapes with witnessing

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sexual abuse and violence and then it gets blamed on the victim or especially the borderline

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diagnosis and and shortly after that as a teenager I did get a borderline diagnosis just because

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I was sexually active I was told by my first therapist like so what are you gonna the entire football

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team next and that started my interest in you know reading up on the borderline personality diagnosis

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and its inherent sexism so there's we have we talking about your psychiatric survivor history

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should we talk about becoming a drug user and feeling how you feel about that and then being

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coming a sex worker and claiming that and so like I know after I told that story the reaction may be

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like oh so she became a person who uses drugs to deal with her trauma and I take issue with that

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like I want to be able to define the reasons that I use drugs the reasons that I do sex work

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and honestly both of those human behaviors are incredibly complex have a very long history

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and there's a multiplicity of reasons for doing them like even within one individual right

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I do drugs for a lot of reasons like some of them sometimes might be like self-medication for trauma

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but a lot of times they're for fun they're social many of the same reasons that you know non-habitual

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recreational users use drugs I use drugs because part of my daily routine now and at this point it's

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you know so normalized and boring and pattern like and moderated by harm reduction techniques that

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it's basically just you know my my nightcap there have been so many reasons and so many ways that

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I have used drugs throughout the years from teenage experimentation to this very routineized

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relationship with opioids that I have now that you can't really define it by pigeonholing it

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with one motivation or another honestly with the first time that I read you know de-quincey the

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first time that I read burrows de-quincey is confessions of an opium meter yeah yes confessions of an

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opium meter yeah all of this literature that I read what was it jack black not the famous jack black

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you know oh god what was the title of that book it was it was amazing it was about being a hobo

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heroin user you can't win I believe it's called it's one of Natasha Lyon's favorite books

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anyways from the very first time that I read all these books is a teenager I was like that is a

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feeling that I want to experience take me there so I'm like one of the old generation I'm not a poly

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substance user like I like opioids benzos are a distant distant second and that's it you know

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it sounds shocking until you think well wait a second we have the same kind of complex nuanced

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relationship to alcohol no exactly why shouldn't we be looking why shouldn't we just expect

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there to be people who enjoy celebrate have these rich ways that they relate to the substance

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because that that wall is really artificial and the wall in a lot of ways is very political there's

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all military US empire British imperialism thread here on opiates and cocaine anti-Chinese sentiment

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yes you know fear of miscegenation all of these things intertwining racism profit motive all the things

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you just said like this is a history that predates the Harrison narcotics act but certainly starts

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from it you know in earnest and yet we know that like human beings have had a relationship with

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opiates for thousands of years like they're mentioned in Homer and Homer writes about recreational

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use of opiates oh wow that I did well like you know I mean allegorically like the sea of poppies the

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poppy eaters there's a long history of people interacting with opiates in fact like lot of them

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used to be like you know a really cheap working class drug in Victorian England and also you know

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at one point the main consumers of morphine like pre-criminalization were housewives and doctors

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you know so like our way of conceiving who uses how it's used etc has really changed and the drug

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itself has not really changed I mean supply shift aside like the drug itself is morally neutral

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it's just a substance we know that people who use alcohol don't necessarily have a problem or

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difficult relationships without many of them do most of the users of alcohol are recreational users

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that and that's actually also true of all the drugs it's true of cocaine it's true of the opiates

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that people who use heroin aren't all necessarily addicted using it compulsively most of the uses

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is not habitual and it's used recreationally and intermittently as it's also kind of like

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itself fulfilling prophecy because all of this dare rhetoric about you know you're going to get

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hooked from the first time you try it etc like people don't even know the techniques to avoid

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the physiology of dependence intolerance like for a couple of years before I became a habitual user

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I used the three-day rule you know like one day on three days off and I did not become physiologically

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dependent until of course I became depressed and I was like this you know who cares if I'm addicted

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and then I hate to use the a word but you know yes and then I became physiologically dependent on

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opioids there are techniques for not becoming physiologically dependent on opioids and using

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them recreationally it's just we don't have like cultural infrastructure to support them

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but it sounds like you you are physiologically dependent but you choose to remain physiologically

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dependent is that right yes and I'm on methadone which is an incredible an incredible drug an

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incredible treatment that allows me to remain stable and allows me to avoid you know a lot of the

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dangers of the illicit marketplace so I'm not constantly on this ticking body clock of withdrawal

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that has become shorter because of fentanyl's half-life the availability of legal methadone by prescription

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which is an addictive opiate is a harm reduction method right that's why I am so active through

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national survivors union I am so active in the national coalition to liberate methadone which is

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the broader coalition of you know methadone patients people who use drugs researchers and providers

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because methadone which is the gold standard treatment for the for people who meet diagnostic

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criteria for opioid use disorder we can talk more about those diagnostic criteria later there's

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decades of an evidence space behind it but because of nexonian era rigid federal regulations that

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were originally created specifically to surveil and punish black urban opioid users it is relegated

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to this tertiary health care system into these clinics that are completely divorced from the

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rest of health care that have incredibly insane rules for adherence and so you know pre-COVID before

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we had some regulation relaxations which we hadn't seen like methadone regulations had remained in

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stasis for 40 years pre-COVID less than 20 percent of people meeting diagnostic criteria for opioid

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use disorder were actually able to access methadone even though it's the supposed gold standard

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treatment for quote opioid use disorder this is called mat medication assisted treatment right for

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medication assisted treatment is a term that encompasses buprenorphine methadone and naltrexone

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i like to use opioid agnist treatment because it doesn't equate the really dismal health outcomes

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of naltrexone with methadone and buprenorphine which have which have shown over and over again to

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having credible health outcomes not only to they you know help with abstinence of people choose that

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they also incredibly reduce morbidity and mortality they're a huge protective factor from overdose

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like these are life-saving miracle drugs and the crime is why is it so difficult to access them

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right now that there is a bill in congress right now the modernizing opioid treatment access act

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which would allow addiction boards certified clinicians to prescribe methadone outside the clinic

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system and it's stalled in its co-sponsorship and so we really need something like that to pass

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there have been huge like i do want to you know tilt my hat to the substance abuse and mental health

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administration you know drug users unions have been able to rely on federal partners way more than

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they have in decades past we've seen real change within the clinic system medication is no longer

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contingent on counseling and people can earn take home doses of methadone without necessarily being

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completely absent from all listed drug use and that has been huge and like there's been a 5% increase

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just since covid of people on bupinorphine and methadone because the regulation there were

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regulation relaxations around bupinorphine too now bupinorphine is a looser system and interestingly

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enough it's much more available in white middle class neighborhoods whereas methadone is much more

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available in low income black neighborhoods i wonder why that is bupinorphine over telehealth is

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you know a standard practice now and so yeah like we're seeing so many more people be able to access

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opioid agonist treatment than have been able to before even with just this amount of change

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well i have a question i don't know this might sound like kind of a naive question but i feel like

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it might be useful to some listeners like i think a lot of us were raised with these stereotypes of

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like the people who are habitual opioid users all of them are addicted all of them have lives that

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are a disaster all of them are in crisis all of them are in poverty none of them are doing anything

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with their lives just like all these really stigmatizing intense pictures of what it means to be

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someone who has an ongoing relationship with opioids and i'm just wondering if there's anything you

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would like listeners to hear about what folks are actually like who are using opioids like what

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people's lives are like what kind of things people are up to like how do we break some of those

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stereotypes i would say to those people to look at the collective power of drug users unions like

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people who use opioids and stimulants for the most part we were an integral part of making that

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policy change in terms of methadone like we saved thousands of our community members lives we run

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our own syringe service programs and drug user health hubs across the country you know some of

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which serve thousands of our community we published the first peer reviewed paper on methadone

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published by methadone patients which you know i first authored you know we published that paper

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we published like the only national survey of the implementation of the methadone regulation

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relaxation during early covid we can do a lot the combined achievements of our team if they could

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just look at that then i think that they would really change their perception of what uh you know

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a person who uses drugs looks like and what somebody who is actively using drugs looks like

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and for the most part it's because we have each other's support you know and we've been able to give

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each other community infrastructure um so that we can thrive so that we can you know we can

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use harm reduction techniques to moderate our use in a way that suits our lives

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and live in a live in a way that fulfills us and you know reach self-actualization

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like and a lot of that has to do with like a lot of the barriers also have to do with policy

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will was laughing before we started recording this interview about like Katie talking about a jet lag app

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i mean i wasn't able to travel before because and before covid you know even when i started

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traveling it was still really difficult for me because in order for me to travel before covid

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i had to make guest-dosing arrangements with the methadone clinic in the area i was traveling to

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months in advance and even if everything worked out there was still the possibility that when i got

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there there would be a bureaucratic snafu and i would be stuck in opioid withdrawal thousands

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away from home in a strange city now that there's been some regulation relaxation you know i've

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been able to go to france in australia i've never been able to travel internationally in my adult

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life before part of the ability to self-actualize is like if you just give us the chance to

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to so that brings me to something that you talked about that i think is really important you talked

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about the social determinants of human experience of health the why someone is in a position where

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they end up in crisis or why someone is is in a situation where they have a difficult relationship

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to drugs or to to sex work and so i know the ultimate home harm reduction approach would be legalization

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or decriminalization just take the harm of the police and take the harm of the prison system and

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take take the harm of the contaminated supply take that out of the equation but a devil's advocate

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point of view and it kind of relates to what you were saying about people who say wait a second we

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don't want we don't want more drugs in our community we don't want decrim or harm reduction because

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it's just more genocide of our communities how do you support a access to drugs legalization of

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of drugs in the context of capitalism how do you get away from the reality that okay people are

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just going to find more ways to medicate themselves into oblivion because they're facing huge poverty

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huge stress disintegration of communities disintegration of meaningful lives that the destruction

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of the human spirit is preventing them to actually have any self actualization so here come legal

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legal drugs to fit into the picture because i know that there are some pro capitalist forces like

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the sorrows network their liberal capitalists out there Peter teal who were saying yeah let's legalize

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drug let's support we started with marijuana let's do psychedelics now let's do cocaine let's do

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all of it but these are not people who have human actualization or human liberation or you know on

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their agenda at all yeah no that's been the curse of like sex workers rights and drug users

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movements is you know the libertarian faction for sure but first of all i want to say like you cannot

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blame drugs for the experience of capitalism and for the self-medication and the numbing people need

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to do if we continue to criminalize drugs we just continue the trauma of incarceration and people

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will continue people who follow the law will just continue numbing themselves with alcohol and

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with consumerism the decriminalization of drugs cannot be a panacea right i mean that's what we saw

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happen in Oregon is you know they decriminalize drugs but what they did at the same time it is they

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stopped covid era cessation of eviction so people got hit with this incredible number of backed-up

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evictions you know people were forced into houselessness and suddenly the right wing media in Oregon

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is screaming oh my god look at all this public drug use you made these people houseless and you

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have no social support system you know you cannot blame the drugs for this and so now they

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have recriminalized drugs and and you know they think that they've solved the problem when they're

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going to continue you know with this with these this death of social supports to create that very

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problem like decriminalizing drugs is just one element in you know like again like going back to

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the beginning of what we were saying about the intersectional nature of these problems you know we

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need to look at these social problems holistically instead of thinking that there's going to be one or

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two measures because there's there is a whole program of measures that we need to take post-decrriminalization

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of drugs there's a very strong parallel here with ending forced psychiatric treatment because you

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can't just end forced psychiatric treatment and then not address the suffering and crisis that

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people are going through because then you have a neglect situation and so it becomes an either or

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people think the only way to provide services to people is to force them into treatment or to force

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them into criminalizing drugs and then forcing people through the prison system through

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carceral mechanisms into forced addiction programs and actually what you need is is both a way in

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which you're going to remove the violence that policies inflict and also create actual supports

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and alternatives so that it's not just you know ending forced treatment or neglect and it's not

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just legalizing drugs and not addressing the the housing situation not addressing poverty not

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addressing all the problems that we have with capitalism and you know we saw that we already saw

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that with Reagan-era D institutionalization and the lack of support and care that was going to be

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there also I want you to stop conflating legalization and decriminalization there to very different

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models help us help us understand the difference then yeah okay so decriminalization is striking the

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laws that criminalize from the books whereas legalization often is a you know an intricate system

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of draconian regulation of whatever that thing is and I am completely for decriminalization of

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sex work because otherwise we get systems like germany's tiered system of registered sex workers

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versus the underclass of unregistered sex workers kind of like kind of like the legal registered

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marijuana growers in california versus the underground right exactly exactly I mean that's the other

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thing like new york state now is having like this affirmative action campaign where they are telling

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these legalized marijuana growers that they need to hire people with criminal records for marijuana

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because what happened in most of these states is like the people who were criminalized for marijuana

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mostly black and brown people who actually had experience growing in the industry you know we're still

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punished they still had that on their record meanwhile a whole bunch of white bros got into the

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business and you know made themselves rich and how is that fair so yeah I mean I see a lot of

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problems with legalization you know the problems that as you say that stem from capitalism and also

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just from draconian regulation that you know stems from people stigma and misunderstanding of these

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issues and so that's why I do prefer decriminalization you know for both these issues do you want to help

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us understand a little bit about the fentanyl crisis because that's a lot in the headlines and it

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becomes like another scare tactic another hot button that is driving more draconian war on drugs

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kind of policies help us understand that sure you cannot ingest fentanyl by touching it most of these

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police officers who say that they have are having panic attacks I think unfortunately fentanyl is

398
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:16,400
the new normal in the east coast people's tolerance has now just adjusted to it like a lot of this

399
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:23,440
could have been avoided with community driven drug checking like one of our affiliate groups

400
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:29,680
from our care line of survivors union which full disclosure I also work for we have community driven

401
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:35,600
drug checking we have our own FTIR machine we're able to give actionable results to people from

402
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,960
their samples in seconds within 10 minutes seeing the purity of the drug by testing it to make sure

403
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:46,400
that you don't is not contaminated with something so I'm not a drug checking expert so take it with a

404
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:54,320
grain of salt or grain of fentanyl as you will you can see what it's composed of and so people can

405
00:42:54,320 --> 00:43:02,720
make decisions based on that and that's really helpful yeah I think that if we had had widespread

406
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:10,320
community drug checking at the time then we would have been able to like really be able to have like

407
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:17,440
and and to like have coalitions with drug sellers you know which a lot of drug checking programs both

408
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:22,960
community driven drug checking programs like that at Chicago Recovery Alliance and North Carolina

409
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:28,960
Survivors Union and Progressive Harm Reductionist researchers and Alliance with drug users unions

410
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:34,560
have you know they have direct relationships with drug sellers who do not want to kill their

411
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:42,080
customers right so if we had all that in the beginning like in 2015 in Massachusetts I don't think

412
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:47,120
we would be seeing a lot of this now I mean part of this is a lack of choice like I think people

413
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:54,240
misunderstand the power that low-level drug sellers have which is why we have all of this you know

414
00:43:54,240 --> 00:44:02,080
really misinformed drug induced homicide legislation because people get this stuff from the top they

415
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:08,720
are not the ones that are mixing it up and they're not the ones who make the decision about cost saving

416
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:18,160
about where you get supply but now you know with like interdiction with COVID era lack of supply and

417
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:24,400
like the you know interruptions to the supply infrastructure fentanyl and xylazine are unfortunately

418
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:29,520
here to stay and I think we still have a chance of saving the west coast we still have a chance of

419
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:37,360
saving Europe we still have a chance to work with drug sellers to try to stop you know the spread of

420
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:46,400
xylazine into opioids but we have to actually start implementing those solutions instead of continuing

421
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:53,040
to create more criminalization and hysteria like scheduling xylazine and putting more people in jail

422
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:57,760
is not going to help anybody the only reason that's that fentanyl and xylazine are part of the

423
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:03,680
equation at all is because the opioids are illegal so people find other alternatives and often it's

424
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:09,120
more more potent alternatives that are easier to smuggle is that correct exactly exactly it's the

425
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:15,120
iron law prohibition right if you can transport something that's more potent and smaller and it's

426
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:20,480
easier to smuggle than of course that's what you'll do as a business person I would actually rather

427
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:28,480
talk about for a second the diagnostic criteria opioid use disorder and how the mad movement has

428
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:35,440
helped me understand how to look at some of these understandings within addiction medicine of substance

429
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:42,560
use disorder like I really think that the way that the mad movement helped me understand and diagnostic

430
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:49,760
criteria to learn that the DSM 5 and all of its predecessors were actually created for insurance

431
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:58,000
categorization to read dr. palakaplin's accounts of like the incredible misogyny and the weird

432
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:03,920
committee consensus and group think that created these diagnoses you know and to understand that they

433
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:10,720
are not objective medical entities these are stereotypes of people these are stigmatizations of

434
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:17,680
people that really helped me understand the pathologization of people who use drugs and I I just

435
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:23,360
want to look up really quickly you know the diagnostic criteria for opioid use disorder for instance

436
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:29,440
like okay some of my point is and I think many psychiatric survivors will understand this because if

437
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,000
you look at a lot of diagnostic criteria like speaking of the social determinants of health

438
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:42,400
they exist in this individualized a political zone where there is no societal external stimulus right

439
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:49,120
so like opioids are often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period of time than intended

440
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:55,120
that is the physical physiological phenomenon of tolerance that's how the drug works these are the

441
00:46:55,120 --> 00:47:01,280
diagnostic diagnostic criteria for opioid use disorder a great deal of time is spent in activities

442
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:07,200
necessary to obtain the opioid use the opioid recover from its effects hmm I wonder why a great

443
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:14,240
deal of time is being spent to obtain the drug when the drugs price has been artificially inflated by

444
00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:22,400
the drug war and you need to avoid criminalization every time you obtain the drug you know see exactly

445
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:28,960
exactly our continued opioid use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal

446
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:35,600
problems caused by or exacerbated by the effects of opioids could stigma against people who use drugs

447
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:42,800
be playing a part in this person's interpersonal relationships I don't know like and now that the

448
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:49,920
way that they restructured the gsm 5 it's like mild moderate and severe opioid use disorder you can

449
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:57,280
check only two of these boxes you know have only two of these criteria and you have mild opioid use

450
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:06,240
disorder and again since some of them are based just on like the physiological you know way that opioids

451
00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:13,440
operate you could have people who are merely taking opioids for pain be diagnosed as having opioid

452
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:20,400
use disorder and people often are and those with dual diagnoses of chronic pain and opioid use

453
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:26,880
disorder are suffering the most because you know there's so much research funding being spent

454
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:35,920
on giving them just fraudulent alternatives for pain management when what they need is their

455
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:45,440
opioid prescription I've had drug users union organizers sit in these pain center advisory boards where

456
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:52,000
clinicians are actually having conversations like well would it be ethical for us to tell our patients

457
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,760
that we're more likely to prescribe opioids than we are just to get them in the door no it would not

458
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:05,360
be ethical why do you need to have a conversation for us to tell you this also with the slight reduction

459
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:11,040
in the overdose crisis which we still have no idea what the causation is there we don't know why

460
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:18,240
that's worked and people really cannot rest on their laurels because black brown and indigenous

461
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:24,800
communities are still disproportionately affected by the overdose crisis and those numbers just to

462
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,040
clarify we don't know why the numbers are falling and why the crisis is slightly improving they're

463
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:34,320
falling by a small amount they're falling like it's the first time there is a significant decrease it

464
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:41,440
was just announced a month or so ago based on federal government data and night a director noravolkau

465
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:46,240
said this this is real this is the first time we can see like something substantial it's like

466
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:52,160
it's about a 10% or less than 10% decrease in the number of deaths by overdose yes

467
00:49:52,160 --> 00:50:01,280
yes but we have no idea what the causation is and we also know that it you know in some communities

468
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:06,560
specifically black brown and indigenous communities the overdose rates are still going up so this is

469
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:12,960
no time for you know the addiction medicine community for substance use researchers for drug users

470
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:18,800
union organizers to rest in their laurels yeah so this is totally fascinating we spent a lot of time

471
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,800
focusing now on drug use issues i'm wondering what what also you working on right now that you're

472
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:29,360
really excited about what are you interested in these days yeah um well i am still connected to

473
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:37,520
sex workers rights movement in that um in 2017 i co-founded a mutual aid harm reduction in organizing

474
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:44,800
group by and for uh sex working and trafficking surviving low income cis and trans women and gender

475
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:51,680
diverse people who use opioids and or stimulants and or experience housing insecurity as you can tell

476
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:59,520
this uh phrasing was made up by committee and yeah and i mean it's been it's been an amazing grassroots

477
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:05,440
effort uh we've done all kinds of things like through our collaboration with the Massachusetts

478
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:10,560
bail fund for instance on and off through the life of our organization we've been able to bail

479
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:16,560
our members and their male family members directly out of lockup which reduces their overdose

480
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:22,320
risks since they're spending less time in incarceration and they made a special arrangement for us to do

481
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:27,280
that which allows us to tailor this bailout care specifically to our members we have one of our

482
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:33,600
members meet them at the door with harm reduction supplies and if they use opioids you know the

483
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:39,520
reminder that their tolerance has been lowered while they've been in jail we you know are able to do

484
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:46,240
things like create this geoculturally specific safer smoking kit like the problem is like i've been

485
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:53,200
sent in even though liberatory harm reduction has this like incredible past of black and brown

486
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:59,440
innovators again like the problem is that as you know harm reduction has been professionalized and

487
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:05,600
appropriated by public health the default is the white male client as i've said the white male

488
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:12,480
client and jokter and in our community we're able to serve you know we're in a city that is 52%

489
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:19,040
Latinx most of that is Puerto Rican and Dominican and our demographics really reflect that and we're

490
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:26,480
able to really like look into black and latin drug use traditions and the way that people use drugs

491
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:32,080
with their clients and the way that people use drugs as women you know and and the way that they

492
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:39,920
have to avoid domestic violence in their drug use like we convened a committee to create a geoculturally

493
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:44,960
specific safer smoking kit and we talked to people about what they wanted in their kits what reflected

494
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:50,000
their drug use patterns and we're now able to not only give out this kit to our members but to

495
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:56,960
area hospitals to the Massachusetts bail fund to new north citizens council to like lots of community

496
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:02,560
organizations and healthcare partners in the area and the group you're talking about is called whose

497
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:07,040
corner is it anyway yes the group i'm talking about is called whose corners in any way yes how did you

498
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:14,240
come up with that name a member of our suggested it and it was hilarious and we kept it we used to in

499
00:53:14,240 --> 00:53:19,280
fact it's not even often called much by our folks except for the women's group so that's been

500
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:25,280
interesting we kind of go against harm reduction ethos towards a more sex worker ethos like harm

501
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:32,160
reduction is like a very open culture it really celebrates openness whereas sex work culture is very

502
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:39,280
much about confidentiality and boundaries and it's sometimes the need for exclusive spaces for safety

503
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:45,680
and we are exclusive we are like membership is by vouch only and that's really helped us because we

504
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:51,200
can tailor a safe space where we can do all sorts of underground things that we otherwise would not

505
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:57,040
be able to do like people are like oh why are you just for women and gender diverse people

506
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:01,920
cis and trans women and gender diverse people why don't you have like you know trans men and cis men

507
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:11,360
too and we had a vote and people were like i'm afraid that my partner is going to want to claim

508
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:16,640
sex work status my male partner is going to want to claim sex work status in order to come here and

509
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:24,240
stalk me or you know get membership stipends and so i i was one of the few that voted for you know

510
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:30,240
gender inclusivity but i was voted down and this was like the will of the community and so you know

511
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:36,560
we kind of are against harm reduction culture and more in line with sex work culture and the way

512
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:43,520
that we operate in a lot of ways another thing is we don't use volunteer labor all of the labor that

513
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:49,840
is done is done by our directly impacted staff they are paid in cash gifts so that people who are

514
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:58,160
unbanked or people who get benefits can be in leadership and that's been really really important to

515
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:04,320
us you know everything that is done you know we don't have a volunteer do work for us everything

516
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:10,720
that is done is done by somebody who is a member you have to be a member in order to be a leader

517
00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:18,320
and meet membership criteria and so that way everything is tailored toward this population because

518
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:24,880
we are the population it's been an incredible experience the fact that you know we started it

519
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:32,640
with crowdfunding which was insane you know at one point we were able to earn 20,000 a month like

520
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:38,560
before the crowdfund market became completely saturated and now we've gotten this diverse

521
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:44,400
part folio of social justice grants we just got our first very large grant from this public

522
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:50,160
private foundation to reduce overdose rise Massachusetts our crowdfunding model has completely

523
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:57,840
collapsed so this definitely is a plug to give to our crowd fund as a belated giving Tuesday gift

524
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,720
our grant funding is still project circumscribed and there are still like allowable and

525
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:09,280
unallowable expenses and the most important thing for us to do is to be able to pay our our staff

526
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:16,320
with cash gifts and we can't do that with a lot of our grant funding and it's most important for

527
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:21,840
us to continue to do that the other thing that I'm really excited about working on is through

528
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:28,000
North Carolina Survivors Union which is a brick and mortar drug user health hub and syringe service

529
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:34,400
program in Greensboro North Carolina it's the flagship affiliate group of national survivors

530
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:40,560
union the United States Drug Users Union and I work for it remotely and I'm the narrative

531
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:48,080
development director which means I write some grants but also I co lead Narcofeminism Story Share

532
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:55,920
which is this incredible project so Narcofeminism just to contextualize it it's a global movement by

533
00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:02,320
and for women and gender diverse people who use drugs cis and trans women and gender diverse

534
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:13,120
people who use drugs and it was started in 2018 in a meeting in Berlin and in 2019 a group of women

535
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:19,280
and gender diverse people wrote the Barcelona Declaration which stated you know the war on drugs

536
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:26,240
is a war on women who use drugs it said that the issues of women who use drugs are feminist issues

537
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,720
because that's the thing people who use drugs have been excluded from so many movements

538
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:39,280
feminism sees us as you know we're too we're too slavishly addicted to be empowered feminists right

539
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:49,920
we're victims we're not agents and so this is a Narcofeminism is about the feminism of women

540
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:55,200
and gender diverse people who use drugs and the feminism of all criminalized people right

541
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:02,720
and so using this is a theoretical underpinning at NC Survivors Union we've started the story sharing

542
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:09,520
project it's this autobiographical story development process which we use to disrupt stereotypical

543
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:14,800
narratives about people who use drugs and specifically women and gender diverse people who use

544
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:21,600
drugs and we use these stories that we develop as teaching tools for health and social service

545
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:28,320
professionals and to spark advocacy and we just published our first paper on the process

546
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:37,040
and I will send it to you as a link for the show notes we also just did our first train the trainer

547
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:45,360
model so we trained a drug and alcohol agency and a drug users union in Queensland, Australia

548
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:52,080
we did like a bunch of a few pre-meetings and then a full day workshop with them they wrote their own

549
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:58,480
brilliant stories and they are now poised to be able to conduct their own Narcofeminism

550
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:04,880
story share module in Queensland so it's now this model is like crossing borders and we've used

551
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:12,000
it to tackle like a number of different topics like we had a module on overdose on hepatitis C

552
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:17,440
on the experiences of sex workers and trafficking survivors who use drugs on the experiences of

553
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:23,600
disabled people who use drugs the storytelling has allowed us to identify emergent issues like we

554
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:30,160
created a new model from it we started doing a module on the experiences of pregnant and parenting

555
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:37,760
people who use drugs and what we realized is that neither reproductive justice nor harm reduction

556
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:43,440
have really done justice to the population of pregnant and parenting people who use drugs

557
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:49,680
like reproductive justice for a number of like philosophical cultural and historical reasons

558
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:57,280
has not really done you know not really included the needs and concerns policy concerns of

559
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:03,120
pregnant and parenting people who use drugs partially you know because like abortion and sterilization

560
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:08,240
those have been like incredibly like concerns that were at the forefront and you know wanting to

561
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:15,440
avoid the stigma of drug use like a lot of movements led by people of color did again justifiably

562
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:22,800
and understandably most syringe service programs do not offer planned B do not offer pregnancy tests

563
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:29,360
do not offer tampons and pads like I had to look up in a medical journal when I was a baby junkie

564
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:34,240
hooker like why I stopped having my period like I didn't know that opioids could cause a

565
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:41,920
manorea harm reduction programs you know are not designed for people who have uteruses so we created

566
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:46,960
a new model called reproductive harm reduction to encompass both things one additional thing that

567
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:54,320
the listeners might be wondering about is in terms of legalization and decriminalization for sex

568
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:59,760
work and we hear a lot about trafficking and human trafficking that's kind of like the framing of

569
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:05,360
sex work tell us something about how decriminalization sex work is the way forward in your view

570
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:12,720
there is this ideological positioning that pits quote voluntary sex workers against trafficking

571
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:19,520
survivors and does not see this more nuanced spectrum between choice circumstance and coercion

572
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:26,880
right and also what we've learned and what you know like an evidence based shows us is that the

573
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:33,600
things that harm quote voluntary sex workers actually hurt trafficking survivors more and that's

574
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:40,960
why for instance the largest network of anti trafficking service providers in the country is sex

575
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:47,920
work inclusive and pro sex work for instance when sesta fausta happened right remind us what says

576
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:54,880
sesta fausta the stop enabling sex traffickers act such fight online sex traffickers act when it

577
01:01:54,880 --> 01:02:03,600
passed in 2018 basically it's it's very complicated to explain but basically that there is a clause

578
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:10,960
a safe harbor clause in one of the early laws that defined internet usage which ensures that if

579
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:17,440
you are a platform like Facebook or something or pranks list you are not liable for user

580
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:23,520
content because otherwise how could Facebook or Twitter or any you know or any site that allows user

581
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:31,840
content continue so what sesta fausta did is it created an exception that in material associated

582
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:39,760
with prostitution the website platform was now actually liable and so they couldn't allow posting

583
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:44,480
and advertising from sex workers or even harm reduction material from sex workers anymore

584
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:51,600
you know right after it passed you know it wasn't even used as law yet but you know about 20 sites

585
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:58,960
shuttered the week after it passed 20 sex worker online advertising sites and unrelated to that

586
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:08,640
but a double blow the next month back page was you know the major online advertisement site for

587
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:16,560
sex workers the cheap and accessible one was seized by the Department of Justice and so now the now

588
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:23,280
the these two measures were taken by the government to supposedly prevent trafficking but what it did

589
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:31,200
was force people into trafficking because what online advertising sites allowed us to do was to

590
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:37,680
advertise independently and procure clients and screen them ourselves and now what was happening was

591
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:45,840
you know we had so many people who were put into economic impoverishment i saw one person go from

592
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:51,920
doing the lowest tier indoor sex work to working outside and once again being trafficked she was a

593
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:58,960
trafficking survivor within two weeks after back the back page seizure she lost the ability to keep

594
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:05,120
up her motel room she was arrested so her car was impounded so she had to go back to an abusive

595
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:11,680
act so that he would drive her to do appointments and that pattern happened all over the place and it

596
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:17,280
drove people into the street and you know they encountered the kind of predators that were in the street

597
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:24,400
and the kind of third party actors who violated people's labor rights and human rights so we see

598
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:29,120
the same kind of thing with drug prohibition you it doesn't drugs and sex are here to stay you can't

599
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:33,600
just make them illegal and expect them to go away but if you do make them illegal if they could become

600
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:40,720
more dangerous exactly exactly after sestifasta passed and after back page was seized in many in many

601
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:47,680
cities street sex work arrests quadrupled or quintupled and we were seeing as sex worker organizers

602
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:52,880
we were seeing a much larger population on the streets and these were lowered to your indoor

603
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:59,280
workers were forced out into the street we were actually being texted and mass by pimps saying

604
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:07,200
like the game has changed now you need me now baby so they knew that this was a fine time to exploit

605
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:15,040
people and traffic them so that is the general rule that any law any policy that hurts voluntary

606
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:20,480
sex workers will actually hurt trafficking survivors more because they're more vulnerable and have

607
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:26,000
fewer resources to drop on you know same thing goes when you criminalize clients if you criminalize

608
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:31,360
clients the more you criminalize clients the more scared they are do you know how often trafficking

609
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:38,640
survivors are actually saved by clients you know if they can't reach out for help to a client who

610
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:44,560
is ethical then what are they supposed to do you know especially if you're being kept in isolated

611
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:50,960
conditions by an incredibly abusive third party manager you're thinking about some countries that

612
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:56,480
have a policy of like they don't arrest the sex workers but they do arrest the clients of the sex

613
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:02,080
workers yes there is the the Swedish model of they don't arrest the sex workers but they do

614
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:08,000
arrest the clients and that actually you know in you you should talk to some Swedish sex workers

615
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:13,280
and also there's like a global evidence-based of research that shows how that harms people in so

616
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:18,880
many ways it drives sex work into more isolated parts of town it makes clients too afraid to go

617
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:24,400
through safety screening procedures with us it increases violence against sex work in all those

618
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:30,000
weight against sex workers in all those ways but I'm actually not even specifically thinking of that

619
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:35,200
I'm thinking of the way that US politicians try to leverage the Swedish model and say we're going

620
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:41,120
to do the Swedish model but what they're actually doing is they're retaining the criminalization of

621
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:48,080
sex workers but they're also intensifying the criminalization of clients I mean it comes back to

622
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:55,440
you're thinking about essentially that if you if you want to reduce the amount of involuntary

623
01:06:55,440 --> 01:07:01,040
sex work or sex work that's driven by circumstance or economics then you have to basically provide

624
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:06,160
people with decent wages or universal basic income or some kind of social network or just basically

625
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:11,680
improve the economic conditions so that people aren't pressured into jobs that they don't like

626
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:15,840
which is actually true of any kind of work all of us are pressured into jobs that we don't like

627
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:20,880
or we stay with abusive bosses or exploitive situations because we don't have other options

628
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:25,760
in the economy so if we improve the economy so ultimately to me it seems like the long-term

629
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:32,160
solution here has to start looking at capitalism and poverty and class issues yeah I mean when there

630
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:39,600
were resources during covid for gig laborers and such that our members were able to apply to one

631
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:47,120
of the things that we started doing during covid was helping people apply to this pandemic assistance

632
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:53,280
program you know and so people got this weird version you know this weird circumstantial version

633
01:07:53,280 --> 01:08:00,480
of universal basic income we saw you know among our whose corner members we saw that people were

634
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:07,440
able to be much safer if you had the ability to say no to a date that looked dicey to you because

635
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:12,960
you know that you were getting a few hundred dollars that week that could make all the difference

636
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:19,360
that could save somebody's life so absolutely this is a question it does come down to these basic

637
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:25,120
social supports it does come down to like universal basic income and these are things that we don't

638
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:30,960
often talk about when we talk about drugs and sex work and yet we should be so Katie this has

639
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:35,280
been a fascinating interview thank you so much for your time um can you let our listeners know how

640
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:40,240
they might contact you or follow your work if they want more information absolutely look me up on

641
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:49,280
Google scholar feedie Simon C at y s i m o n and you can always email me uh Katie C at y at urban

642
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:57,920
survivors union dot org and please give to whose corner if you're able we are going into a cold winter

643
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:03,680
here in Massachusetts and people will need all the support that they can get we do mostly serve

644
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:10,160
houseless and housing insecure sex workers who use drugs um and if you cannot give which i completely

645
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:15,200
understand especially because there are so many competing demands on our charity what with the

646
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:20,720
atrocities happening in Gaza and with so many other worthy organizations out there please feel free

647
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:26,720
to share the fundraiser that would be a great help great thank you so much Katie Simon for joining us

648
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:32,480
today on madness radio and thank you jacks for co-hosting and a time thank you so much for the

649
01:09:32,480 --> 01:09:39,840
opportunity to be here it's really nice to be able to come back to my old mad movement haunts and

650
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:46,080
you know look at my current work through that lens and it's always nice to see you will and jacks

651
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:51,440
you've been listening to an interview with Katie Simon Katie Simon has spent more than 20 years in

652
01:09:51,440 --> 01:09:57,280
the low income rights psychiatric survivors rights sex workers rights and drug users union

653
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:03,920
movements she's a leadership team member and a sex worker liaison for national survivors union

654
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:09,520
the United States National Drug Users Union and executive staff in two of its affiliate groups across

655
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:14,800
the country Katie was one of the main organizers with the Freedom Center in western Massachusetts

656
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:20,960
and was the instigator of poverty is not a crime that's all the time we have on madness radio thanks for

657
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:38,400
tuning in what does it mean to be called crazy in a crazy world listen to madness radio voices

658
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:49,600
and visions from outside mental health